Plane Crash

[AGAP]

Not saying Rosa isn’t right to a degree, have a problem with myself and the rest of the people in this thread being included in that self aggrandizing group. Don’t see anyone in this thread, on this site, putting fourth anything that would remotely be classified as self aggrandizing….thats my problem with the question <img>

Allison

[Halfman]

Not going to commit one hundred percent to a blind devotion to the origin of our U.S. policies nor the means and ends. Still think we are entirely too focused on the covenantism ideals of the predominant religion in this land.

Far as a collective dissing of us as a thread, board people, whatever, I cannot chide what I am unwilling to fix or be a part of. It is frustrating to think back to over a year ago and remember how carefree I used to feel about having my slice of hassle-free democracy and eating it too. Sorry to say, it was not 9/11 that woke me up either. It was the realization that, even with the time I put in serving this land and its laws, I sat back and did little but criticize its shortcomings. Hardly ever did I take the time to count blessings nor did I bother to see if there was anything I could do, as one voice, to not so much cause a sea change, but express freedoms paid for in the blood of our ancestors inside and outside the U.S.A.

Voicing displeasure is the hallmark of democracy, indeed. Bringing actions to bear upon dissatisfaction is the precursor to growth. If activity does not follow the outrage, stagnation and blame take control and so does aquiescing to the convenient thinking such as "Hell, no one ever listened to me so therefore…", or my personal fav, "We do it like this because we always have…." Wish I could say others do this shit, but I have been guilty in some degree and probably always will be. I can admit seeing lousy examples set before me and following them out of habit. Really would like to say there is a sacrifice-free cure for all the societal and political woes in sight, but history shows that the Industrial Revolution was a success and I think we can build this shit right if we even but try.

[rosa]

Hey Allison. Thanks for your perspective. I didn’t mean to attack anyone personally; just surprised at the sheer volume of memorials, or whatever you wish to call them.

I also didn’t mean to imply that people (however directly/indirectly affected) don’t have a right to be upset. But why bring a year-old thread back up, just to reassert that you’re still upset? I too was upset and frightened on this day last year; I guess I just differ from everyone else in that the repurcussions aren’t as acute for me.

Don’t get me wrong- we’re all here to help each other out, of course, and if any of my friends are still genuinely upset then Rosa’s got your back, by all means. My problem is not that people are grieving; my problem is that it all seems rather vain. Again, I’m not directing that at any one person specifically; just a generalization as influenced by the media. No one seems to have anything original to say, and I’m referring to sources outside of this one as well. I wouldn’t mind a 9/11 thread if it offered some fresh perspective/ideas (i.e. channeling our suffering into a positive agenda for change; extending the scope of our empathy to include the rest of the world; raising critical questions as to the competency and efficiency of our government; etc). And I don’t even mind this one so much, because you all are giving me room to speak my mind, as general and disorganized as it might be <img>

thanks,
Rosa

p.s. den buck, I’m sorry that you have friends who were hurt and who suffered loss. I also agree with you about Tony Blair <img> , but as for Hussein, I think Bush is just attempting to carry out his old man’s unfinished business.

<small>[ 09-12-2002, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: rosa ]</small>

[Robert]

Roberts thoughts to Rosa(and everyone else for that matter):

First of all, to those of you living in the US, this is just the thoughts of someone from outside the US, -so if you’re offended by anything I say please forgive me. I mean no harm.

Of course I felt sorry for the people who died -and their friends and family. But for me the biggest tragedy is, as I tried to explain in my post yesterday, the whole deal that followed 9/11.

-The situation in Israel, where the violence and injustice towards the palestinians(spelling?) has grown to unbelivable heights. This, allthough I have no friends or family there, upsets me alot.

-How Bush(and a lot of other americans) insists that it was an attack on the "free world" and that it would change our lives forever. It wasn’t, it was an attack on the US. And for me and most other people in Norway it has had little or no impact on our daily lives. One thing that has changed though, is the public opinion towards the US(the Bush administration.) Norway has traditionally been very US friendly, this has changed over the last year. People are generally more sceptic towards the US and feel that the "war" towards terrorism has gotten outa hand.

-It saddens me to see how the government controls the press, especially in the months following the attack. How there was an almost total lack of criticism and debate of how the Bush administration handled the situation. And there was no attempts to try to explain why there was an attack, it was just labelled as an insane terrorist attack, of course this is true -but in the norwegian press and media generally there has been drawn up some explanation as to "why the US."

-How the US now wants to attack Irak, with or without the support of the UN. And with no solid evidence that Irak has nuclear weapons. Sending in UN observers seems to be almost unwanted by the Bush administration. This upsets me alot, there are innoscent people in Irak as in any other countries -therefor there must be rockhard evidence before an attack is launched. And, if Irak has nuclear weapons, well -then an attack on Irak can lead to all sort of situations.

-For me it is also strange that there seems to be no or little reflection over the US military actions in other countries the last 50 years. I would have thought that an attack on US grounds would make the people re-evaluate this.

-Every day, more children are dying from starvation and abuse than the number killed in the attack. I’m not saying that this lessens the suffering of those affected -but it, atleast for me, gives it an perspecitive. And I feel that the poverty and suffering of these children has "drowned" to some extent(spelling?) since the attack.

I’ve got more -but I won’t make it too long to read for you. Hope I’ve given you a proper explanation of my post yesterday Rosa.

[everyonelovesjaron]

</font><blockquote><font>quote:</font><hr><font>Originally posted by Valentine Frankenstein:
<strong>Don’t see anyone in this thread, on this site, putting fourth anything that would remotely be classified as self aggrandizing….thats my problem with the question <img>

</strong></font><hr></blockquote><font>You’re not self-aggrandizing, you’re Canadian. I’m talking about Americans. People who claim to be profoundly changed, yet think buying more SUVs is the answer. People who think 2600 people dying once is somehow greater then the death of easily 4 times that many every day from hunger. People who think we can declare war on soverign nations for the actions of it’s private citizens. That’s America right now. You’re Canadian. You’re exempt.

Which brings me to a funny Canadian joke I saw on the Onion. It was asking what people thought of the Canadian legislature voting to legalize marijuana and someone said: "Wait. They’re legallizing pot, have free health care, and virtually no crime. We make fun of them, why?"

[AGAP]

Again I’m not talking about the general americans out there, I’m talking about the six or so freaksceners who expressed their grief at last year getting lumped in with that general pool based on simple statements of grief. The simple statements of grief by those six or so freakscene members did not in any way imply agreement with george’s policies, that they bought the media spin on the event, that any of us here felt the need to spend more on suv’s or whatever to fix what is broken in the us, I am surprised that the assumptions were made that they did, thats my problem with that…like I said the 1st time.

As to legalization of pot in canda, never gonna happen. What I think will happen is decriminilization of small amounts. Can never see what the senate recommended coming to any kind of fruition, although I’d like to, just don’t believe there is a chance in hell canada will regulate and sell pot like alcohol. We do have free healthcare, but are taxed to death to get what we have. The access to specialized services and diagnostic testing sometimes takes years…people are heading to the us to get their own MRI scans done rather than die waiting, but not all can afford that. I think the best health care is a mix of private and public similar to that seen in Sweden.

Allison

<small>[ 09-12-2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Valentine Frankenstein ]</small>

[Robert]

</font><blockquote><font>quote:</font><hr><font>Originally posted by Valentine Frankenstein:
<strong>The simple statements of grief by those six or so freakscene members did not in any way imply agreement with george’s policies, that they bought the media spin on the event, that any of us here felt the need to spend more on suv’s or whatever to fix what is broken in the us, I am surprised that the assumptions were made that they did, thats my problem with that…like I said the 1st time.
Allison</strong></font><hr></blockquote><font>Instead of my long and boring post I should’ve written that. Thanks for having the words I couldn’t find Allison.

ps. what has happened to "my" cow message icon? please bring it back!!

[rosa]

Hey Allison,

Here’s hoping that Canada’s approach to the pot issue makes more sense than that of the U.S. <img> Medical pot is legal here in the state of CA, but still illegal at the federal level, so there’s this constant battle between the two governments. It’s almost like the state has found a loophole that strangles them on the way down, or something.

And again, per my post; I wasn’t assuming that everyone here is aligned with Bush, just asking questions to get a feel for where you all were coming from. Which is why I’m glad that so many people have responded <img> , it gives me a chance to gain that perspective.

take care,
Rosa

[buckingham rabbit]

I’m just going to say that I was already a cynical person with little faith in human beings. The events of last year just further solidified that belief. Yoko Ono has been pushing, again, for people to "give peace a chance." It’s useless because that goes against human nature. Violence and hate are so engrained into our genetic makeup that there will never be peace. Too many people are self-serving, self-centered, and ignorant. I’m not saying that all people are scumbags, because they aren’t. There are good people out there who do good things. However, humanity–people as a species, a whole–I don’t think there is much hope for. It sickens me that things like 9/11 happen, but I am not surprised. Fuck placing blame on US imperialism or Muslim zealots. Something like this was going to happen anyway, if not in the US then somewhere else, and for entirely different reasons. If you look at history there are countless atrocities that rival and surpass what happened last year. We merely have to go back to the Holocaust to find something that’s worse.

On another note, as much as I hate the media, I don’t think they are controlled by the government. They were just too afraid of criticizing Bush after 9/11 because his approval rate was at 80% or higher, I don’t remember. That means 80% of their viewers like what Bush was doing. You criticise him, you piss them off, and then you’re fucking with your advertising revenue. If you know about the Vietnam war and the media, then you know that it was definitely not controlled by the government. Granted, that was 30 years ago…

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