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The main reason the record industry hates downloading is that you can sample the music. That same reason the artists whine, etc. It makes the work too hard in most cases. If I walk into Walmart and buy an item that ends up being what I don’t need or want OR doesn’t do the job I was led to believe it did, I can return it. With a CD, if I buy it and it doesn’t stand up to my expectation of quality, I cannot return it. It’s unfair to me, there is no fair trade in music. Consumers have no rights in the music field. If you hear a song on the radio, think the band is good and buy an album full of filler, you can’t return it.
The dude from Dramarama needs to get over himself. The only reason 98% of the people who know they exists anymore knows is because the chick from Rockstar covered their song last summer. I look at it this way: When I’m going on tour, I rent a van, pack in the instruments and go on the road. Set up guarantees so you know what you’re making and can budget. Sure, not everyone can do guarantees (i.e. – ME), but I’m sure Dramarama can get someone to do it for them. The problem is, they believe it’s still 1986 and they can fly from show to show and live the lifestyle…they need to get over it. That time is gone. Trust me, if the ONLY place to get Dramarama songs on Earth was iTunes, this guy would STILL not have enough money to fly from show to show, etc. It’s hard accepting life when your relevance is gone.
That’s how industry is. When you’re no longer relevant, you will disappear and your business will no longer be viable. Music, as an industry, is the same way. It’s a bummer, it is, but tastes change and so do people.
However, I will be honest, being called a Disrespectful Thief doesn’t hurt my feelings. If that’s how you view my take, fine, I’ll accept the label. For me, it’s a case of "Do unto others…" I’d happily be in the spot of any of these bands and you will NEVER hear me complain about anyone downloading anything I have or will release. As long as no one else is cashing in on it, I don’t care if I do.
Honestly, this is a debate where there will be no resolution. Someone will complain no matter what. I’m all for sampling before you buy and finding new music through cost-free searching. It’s not much different than the battles over recordable cassettes…people recorded all sorts of songs off the radio and the music industry said it was theft for people to do that. Also, a study just releases found a .7% drop in CD sales in 2002 due to downloading. Hardly worth the freak out if you ask me. Also, we must take into account the current economy, the war, etc. All entertainment industries are making less. It’s just the state of nation as much as downloaders.
"andyfest " wrote:Downloading illegally is only beneficial to the person doing it (assuming they don’t get caught). It hurts the artists, labels, record stores, legitimate download sites, etc., etc. Whether you hate "the big bad record company" or not, illegally downloading an album is no different than walking into Wal Mart, taking a CD and walking out of the store without paying for it. I realize there’s a tangible item in this case, rather than digital files but that makes little difference.If artists and labels thought it was good for their art to release the songs for free they would do it through their website which they almost never do.
Personally, I think if you end up buying the album and don’t share it with others, it’s not as bad to download the advance copies but that’s a fine line and still obviously illegal.
Not to be rude, but that is a ridiculous statement. I have personally heard bands I would not have heard otherwise and PURCHASED albums I would not have had I not downloaded something from the band. I have bought shirts, concert tickets and more from bands I would have no heard otherwise. And I’m willing to believe I’m not some special one-of-a-kind human being, so your statement is rather invalid.
I understand why people are against downloading music illegally, but I too have discovered many bands this way. I download an album, and if I like it, I buy it. If I dont like it, I just delete it.
"sfbarker " wrote:That same reason the artists whine, etc. It makes the work too hard in most cases. If I walk into Walmart and buy an item that ends up being what I don’t need or want OR doesn’t do the job I was led to believe it did, I can return it. With a CD, if I buy it and it doesn’t stand up to my expectation of quality, I cannot return it. It’s unfair to me, there is no fair trade in music. Consumers have no rights in the music field. If you hear a song on the radio, think the band is good and buy an album full of filler, you can’t return it.The dude from Dramarama needs to get over himself. The only reason 98% of the people who know they exists anymore knows is because the chick from Rockstar covered their song last summer. I look at it this way: When I’m going on tour, I rent a van, pack in the instruments and go on the road. Set up guarantees so you know what you’re making and can budget. Sure, not everyone can do guarantees (i.e. – ME), but I’m sure Dramarama can get someone to do it for them. The problem is, they believe it’s still 1986 and they can fly from show to show and live the lifestyle…they need to get over it. That time is gone. Trust me, if the ONLY place to get Dramarama songs on Earth was iTunes, this guy would STILL not have enough money to fly from show to show, etc. It’s hard accepting life when your relevance is gone.
That’s how industry is. When you’re no longer relevant, you will disappear and your business will no longer be viable. Music, as an industry, is the same way. It’s a bummer, it is, but tastes change and so do people.
However, I will be honest, being called a Disrespectful Thief doesn’t hurt my feelings. If that’s how you view my take, fine, I’ll accept the label. For me, it’s a case of "Do unto others…" I’d happily be in the spot of any of these bands and you will NEVER hear me complain about anyone downloading anything I have or will release. As long as no one else is cashing in on it, I don’t care if I do.
You know…..you sound like a real, 100%, grade-A asshole. Maybe you’re not actually one, but if these sentiments truly reflect who you are as a whole person, then I’m afraid my judgment stands.
By the way, I have no idea who "the chick from Rockstar" is, or that she covered a Dramarama song. And for the record, that band never "lived the lifestyle," flying from place to place like the Rolling Stones. Not even close. The real problem has to do with spoiled-brat-type assholes who think they have the right, as good American consumers, to sample the results of the work of others — without paying a thing for it — to decide whether it meets their lofty standards, after which they might deign to honor the musicians by –*gasp* — actually *paying* for their work. And anyway, that’s what sound clips, and authorized single-track mp3 downloads, are for.
And the "relevance" argument about musicians is just crass and stupid. Jessica Simpson sells 3 million copies of her latest cd; J sells about 30,000. Does this example of her greater "relevance," as determined by the marketplace, mean that J’s music is "no longer viable," and that he should pack it up?
"sfbarker " wrote:Not to be rude, but that is a ridiculous statement. I have personally heard bands I would not have heard otherwise and PURCHASED albums I would not have had I not downloaded something from the band. I have bought shirts, concert tickets and more from bands I would have no heard otherwise. And I’m willing to believe I’m not some special one-of-a-kind human being, so your statement is rather invalid.I am one of those human beings you speak of. If I hadn’t downloaded YLAOM there’s no way I would even be here on the forum discussing this. I had heard Feel The Pain years before and thought it was lame so there was no way I would have bought a Dinosaur Jr album but discovering YLAOM changed my life. I bought the CD about a week later and then later when I saw them in Manchester I spent £65 on merch. To me it’s more a case of borrowing the music, and as said before if I like it I’ll go on to buy everything if not I give it back by deleting it. Obviously not all people are like me but whatever thats my opinion.
"King Tubby " wrote:You know…..you sound like a real, 100%, grade-A asshole. Maybe you’re not actually one, but if these sentiments truly reflect who you are as a whole person, then I’m afraid my judgment stands.By the way, I have no idea who "the chick from Rockstar" is, or that she covered a Dramarama song. And for the record, that band never "lived the lifestyle," flying from place to place like the Rolling Stones. Not even close. The real problem has to do with spoiled-brat-type assholes who think they have the right, as good American consumers, to sample the results of the work of others — without paying a thing for it — to decide whether it meets their lofty standards, after which they might deign to honor the musicians by –*gasp* — actually *paying* for their work. And anyway, that’s what sound clips, and authorized single-track mp3 downloads, are for.
And the "relevance" argument about musicians is just crass and stupid. Jessica Simpson sells 3 million copies of her latest cd; J sells about 30,000. Does this example of her greater "relevance," as determined by the marketplace, mean that J’s music is "no longer viable," and that he should pack it up?
Sadly, the mindlessness of Jessica Simpson and the sensationalism of her life is more relevant to today’s world. Sorry, but it’s the way it is.
Look, a CD is $15. For your average, minimum wage worker, they would have to work nearly 3 hours of their lives to afford to purchase a single CD. If the CD has one "radio hit" and a bunch of trash, they’ve been swindled out of the life they used to earn that CD. As I said before, I can return any other product that doesn’t live up to it’s expectations or it’s hype. I can’t do that with music or movies. It’s unfair for the consumer. I’m sorry, if me valueing my life so much that I don’t want to work to be ripped off by someone who doesn’t want to make a complete, SOLID work, then so I will accept that.
I would much rather sample the music FOR FREE then buy the album. Remember when CD stores all started having listening stations? Remember certain labels wouldn’t allow their releases to be listened to IN-STORE because they knew people would hear how weak they were and not buy them. It’s the same thing with online music, people are afraid people will hear the half-assed attempts and just buy a mix CD or download the one song.
Also, called my wife to ask…the girl’s name was Storm Large, she did the song on the Rockstar TV show. I’m sure the sales on that song on iTunes blew up after that…for Dramarama. I mean, I love a lot of band most people don’t, I’m not going to blame downloading for their inability to tour. Their inability to tour comes from no one caring and wanting to buy tickets. Touring has VERY little to do with record sales…most bands tour WAY before their albums are released. It’s not a valid excuse. You have to draw an audience to make money at touring and playing music. Dramarama can’t do that anymore, so they can’t make money touring. Downloading is an easy scapegoat for A LOT of washed up folks (by industry standards).
I may be an asshole, I value my life too much to work to pay for garbage. I buy CDs, lots of them, but I buy NOTHING I haven’t heard before unless I believe in the band. I bought the new Melvins album without hearing it. It was alright, not the best, but alright. I’d 90% of the 200+ CDs I’ve bought in the past 2 years have been downloaded before purchased. Hell, I’ve already purchased the new Dino, Jr. and I’m listening to it as I type this.
"sfbarker " wrote:Honestly, this is a debate where there will be no resolution.Tubby….sfbarker……………stop, for a minute.
Whenever a debate has no resolution the only thing you can do is find the fulcrum or the apex of the disagreement and work from there. I know that I am a fairly conscientious person and if I’m getting something for free, it is a little difficult to get me to make a special trip to go out and "pay" for something, I already have. So, I am not one to go out and buy something I have downloaded………..I believe the sound quality is better when I play the cd…….. that’s what gets me to "buy" something.I like how you said in an earlier post that "Beyond" could sell 50,000 I think so, still making a living off of selling cd’s is difficult at this level. I would imagine more money is made by touring, so the download thing is good because it builds a fan base.
The biggest issue is that technology is changing the way that the music business is doing its business.
For someone my age, it is a very difficult thing to watch……….I have no idea’s what to do……..and I can’t afford to put a lot of thought into it……………..but things are going to have to change.Could it be that the whole putting the music out to download early and then pulling it was a whole Fat Possum marketing ploy? They’re name circulates along with Dinosaur Jr and the buzz surrounding this…
I am so naive as to what is going on…………I felt bad for the cd to show up on line before it was released and I didn’t download it, but now I’m not so sure who among us is the fool. ?
"sfbarker " wrote:I would much rather sample the music FOR FREE then buy the album. Remember when CD stores all started having listening stations? Remember certain labels wouldn’t allow their releases to be listened to IN-STORE because they knew people would hear how weak they were and not buy them. It’s the same thing with online music, people are afraid people will hear the half-assed attempts and just buy a mix CD or download the one song.Hell, I’ve already purchased the new Dino, Jr. and I’m listening to it as I type this.
Uh, I’ve worked in a record store throughout the 90’s and was sometimes stationed at the listening booth. And NEVER has anyone (company rep or other) NOT allowed a CD to be listened to in-store. I also returned an album, once, because it didn’t live up to my expectations. The store took it back.
To sample one or two songs before buying an album is par for the course.
How can you have purchased the new Dino album, when it’s not out yet (Do you mean by pre-order) ? And did you purchase it only because people pointed it out and it made you feel guilty?
"sfbarker " wrote:I would much rather sample the music FOR FREE then buy the album.I would much rather bands send me CDs for free. I would also prefer my landlord let me live for free. However, since he doesn’t, that doesn’t make it OK for me to bash in his windows and rob his house. I was unaware that just because we’d prefer a paradigm shift we had free reign to break the law with moral impunity.
I have no guilt in this. And yes, when I used to go to Wherehouse Music, they had labels that they could not open for you to play. Also, maybe it’s just here in Texas, but they will not take returns on CDs that have the shrinkwrap removed.
I ordered the CD because I have every other Dinosaur, Jr album that’s been released, so I want this one to keep the set together. Also, it’s an album I want to support with my cash. Why would I feel guilty about downloading anything? I’m certain J hasn’t cried a single tear over this. I’m sure he and Lou Barlow are pumped when they play and people already know these songs and sing along. I’m also sure they’ll be happy when this album sales exactly what they figured it would.
And, annastefka, I appreciate your post. You’re 100% right. It’s a transitional time in the industry and scary for a lot of people. Also, I think could be 100% right about Fat Possum letting it leak. They’ve been on a downward slide since Epitaph pulled out on their joint venture. They need something to get the name out there and the catalog selling. You should buy R.L. Burnside’s Ass Pocket of Whiskey. It’s basically R.L. and the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion hanging out at his house recording. It’s priceless. You can hear them getting drunker as the recording goes on.
"everyonelovesjaron " wrote:I would much rather bands send me CDs for free. I would also prefer my landlord let me live for free. However, since he doesn’t, that doesn’t make it OK for me to bash in his windows and rob his house. I was unaware that just because we’d prefer a paradigm shift we had free reign to break the law with moral impunity.To quote an SNL skit, "Really?" Are you serious?
Let’s put it in intelligent terms. When you moved into the house you rented from your landlord, did he charge you to walk through it and make sure it was up to your standards? When you bought your car, were you able to test drive it? If you buy a guitar, can you play it before you buy it? All I’m saying is we should not be subjected to purchasing CDs with no idea of what is on them outside of 1 selected track from the band.
I will ask you this as well. There is a site online that has schematics for various guitar pedals, amp wirings, etc. Someone with a reasonable knowledge of circuitry could make all their own pedals, amps and fix their guitar wiring for only the cost of parts. No one is trying to shut this down, why not?
Also, people are tabbing records out on this very board. I’m working on some now. It has already been shown through OLGA, etc that this is a punishable offense under interpretation of copyright law. With tabs, I could learn to play a song without buying the CD or I wouldn’t have to buy any music books that band released (if they so chose to). I live by the "it’s all okay or none of it is" mentality.
The reason a lot of these aren’t such hot button issues is that these don’t effect big business nearly as bad as the music. A songbook mostly goes to the person with publishing rights (i.e. – the songwriter/publishing firm) so the labels don’t get much of the percentage, so they largely don’t care. It’s childish to pick battles and then make up outrageous examples. In philosophy, it’s called begging the question. It’s invalid in trying to make honest conclusions.
"sfbarker " wrote:Let’s put it in intelligent terms. When you moved into the house you rented from your landlord, did he charge you to walk through it and make sure it was up to your standards? When you bought your car, were you able to test drive it? If you buy a guitar, can you play it before you buy it? All I’m saying is we should not be subjected to purchasing CDs with no idea of what is on them outside of 1 selected track from the band.Should I be able to try on boxer shorts before buying them? Music isn’t a car, it isn’t marketed/sold the same way. Go back to my main point: just because you don’t like how music is sold doesn’t mean you should get to change the system around to your liking.
Yes it does. History is full of examples where people changed the status quo. People like you who think it’s wrong to change what is already in motion are the problem with our country today.
And underpants…nice rebutle.
I will stand by my take and take any criticism that comes with it. Civil Disobedience’s main principle is to take the punishment that comes with the action. I just think you’re flawed in your logic. Business sense lacks a lot of logic though, so I don’t blame you.
I believe there are many cases in this very thread that have said their downloading has led to them BUYING albums they wouldn’t have bought otherwise. That’s the only backing I need to show the logic of my position. Downloading exposes music to a lot more people. I love music, not the music industry, so I’m more into the experience of it. I will do what it takes to expose myself to more music, because I love it. I don’t make enough money to support my lower-middle class lifestyle and buy all the music I want to hear.
Also, through the music journalism I do, I get a lot of promo albums, which I have actually liked so much I’ve purchased a copy of the albums. It’s fun to call people thieves and assholes though, so why fight the way things are?
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