The real reason behind the war in Iraq

[Robert]

But because they have so much money, they can influence the politics, israel, gay marriage et al. And I don’t think they would agree with you that they’re driven by money, not religion

[Annastefka]

"Robert" wrote:

But because they have so much money, they can influence the politicsAnd I don’t think they would agree with you that they’re driven by money, not religion

I would have to say Yes, and Yes, you are correct on both points.

So as Rich says, What are we to do about this mess?

[K7 Rides Again]

well kiddies, I’ve been hanging in the background long enough, and I finally can’t shut up anymore…

We’re in Iraq for three very basic reasons, of which a slew of complex reasons evolve…

1) Religion
2) Natural Resources
3) Nukes

Starting w/ #2

The world runs on oil. You cannot deny that. It is the one thing that every nation of the world has in common, period. Without oil, the world would cease to be. If you want to stop the war in Iraq, I highly suggest you sell your car, quit using electricity, and basically, quit consuming any type of good that relies on oil in some way or another to get to you. I figure if we all go back to hunting/ gathering societies, this should curb the world oil demand.

"Wake Up America!" Get real :slap:

#1

I swear religion is the cause of 99% of the world problems, people and their variations of it. The problem w/ religion is that everyone validates their causes and actions based on their religion. "Hey, I’m not to blame, I’m just doing what GOD told me to do." How convenient. To say Bush isn’t doing what he believes God wants him to do is a foolish notion. Read through Bush’s speeches and see just how many times he references God as a reason for his actions. The problem is that Bush believes he is doing God’s work, and his actions are justified because of it. The problem is Osama believes he is also doing God’s work, and his actions are justified because of it.

Religion is a huge problem in the middle east because there are so many groups with power who have their own slant on what religion tells them to do, leading to a highly unstable environment. These people are continuosly at war with eachother because each group has their own fundamental beliefs as to who is right, and in the case of the Middle East (and the rest of the world) might makes right. Those with the most power excerpt their beliefs upon everyone else. Those who don’t agree, are forced to fight for their beliefs. The problem is, everyone is right becuase they’re fighting for what they believe is correct, and none of them are wrong because theey’re doing God’s work. You now who else believed they were doing God’s work? Hitler. The crusaders, practitioners of the Inquisition, the list goes on and on…

#3

Nukes. The problem in the Middle East is the presence of nukes(namely in Pakistan). They’re there, and whoever conrols the Middle East controls the nukes. It’s a highly unstable region and whoever has the most power controls the middle east. Most of these countries are against terrorism. but what happens if Bin Laden and his religious followers were to take control? That’s right, they would have access to nukes, and wouldn’t hesitate for one moment to unleash them on anyone and everyone they see unfit. That’s scary!!! Sinc emost of the Middle East is sympathetic to 9/11 we’re somewhat in the clear, because they don’t want to see nukes used on other people or even themselves, since their religions don’t coincide w/ Bin Laden. But what if there was a nation that didn’t care for the U.S. or other countries, oh I don’t know, say maybe the leaders of Iraq? What were to happen if Bin Laden could align himself w/ a country like this, and take over Pakistan? Nukes away!!!

That’s why the U.S. has to get involved. To help bring stability to this area, and prevent religious cults form gaining the upper hand and destroying us. These religious fanatics believe they are doing God’s work and will not stop trying to find ways to rid the world of the "infidels". This is why we’re involved. We have to prevent these people from ever gaining that oppurtunity. Does the 1,000 U.S. soldiers dead, really compare to the 3,000 innocent that died on 9/11? Is it possible that they’re being sacrificed so that millions more don’t meet the same fate? That’s why we’re in Iraq. To remove people from power that directly oppose us, and wouldn’t hesitate for one moment to unleash hell on anyone who doesn’t agree with them. We are making the world a safer place, by removing the few who are against us, and freeing those that are supressed by these same individuals but do not have the power to overcome them themselves. We are their to strengthing the bonds with those who agree with us, and revent radicals form gaining the upper hand.

Think about that

[K7 Rides Again]

Currently, the history channel is running a two hour special on Osama Bin Laden. I highly suggest you all watch it, and then reconsider whether or not the U.S. coalition should be in Iraq. Get informed, and gain a clearer understanding of the condition the middle east is in, and then decide whether or not involvement in the middle east is beneficial to ourselves, and all the people there.

War is a grizzly undertaking and death is not pretty, but the outcome of not being involved is even scarier

[K7 Rides Again]

I also would like to apoligize for all the typos, incorrect spelling, adn varying (incorrectly) use of comma’s, but it’s early and I don’t feel like editing to any great extent :aliensmile:

[K7 Rides Again]

later I would also like to comment on the left, the right, and how fucked up they both are, as well as comment on the assault weapons ban, but, work’s calling me, and I have to go…later freaks

[Annastefka]

"the ineffable me" wrote:

If you want to stop the war in Iraq, I highly suggest you sell your car, quit using electricity, and basically, quit consuming any type of good that relies on oil in some way or another to get to you.

I swear religion is the cause of 99% of the world problems, people and their variations of it.
because each group has their own fundamental beliefs as to who is right, and in the case of the Middle East (and the rest of the world) might makes right. Those with the most power excerpt their beliefs upon everyone else. Those who don’t agree, are forced to fight for their beliefs. The problem is, everyone is right becuase they’re fighting for what they believe is correct, and none of them are wrong because theey’re doing God’s work.

Nukes. The problem in the Middle East is the presence of nukes(namely in Pakistan). They’re there, and whoever conrols the Middle East controls the nukes. It’s a highly unstable region and whoever has the most power controls the middle east.

. but what happens if Bin Laden and his religious followers were to take control? That’s right, they would have access to nukes, and wouldn’t hesitate for one moment to unleash them on anyone and everyone they see unfit. That’s scary!!!

That’s why the U.S. has to get involved. To help bring stability to this area, These religious fanatics believe they are doing God’s work Think about that

Hey ineffable, If I sell my car and quite using electricity the war in Iraq would not stop. Even if 2000 of us did that the war would not stop. We do have to start thinking of the future and get our children thinking as they will carry the weight of this. Hey, I am just as hooked on my car and my plastic tupperware as the next person. We just have to start moving in that thought wave or pattern.

As far as your second point, I think people and their egos are responsible for 99% of the worlds problems. When you say each has their own beliefs as to who is right . Those with the most power force their beliefs on everyone else. ect…………. Ummmm I saw that with grade school boys everyday on the playground and let me tell you it has nothing to do with God or religion. Some boys have alpha issues and I see it at every age level. Do you think that many women are behind wars? As Mothers and wives we are almost never for any war. Is it that only men are religious fanactis? No I don’t think so ,but some men have power issues. Forget the God part, we are all being led by God, we have no choice we are full of the same atoms (Adams) and we are all a part of God, even Hitler was a little piece of God. I can’t elaborate this, because I am under a tornado warning at the moment and typing like crazy before we lose power.

Your third point the Nukes, you are right about this and Pakistan is a very unstable country, However how long do we stay in and control the situation? Until it is under control. :slap:
We must look at the big picture. You think Bin Laden wouldn’t hesitate to use a nuke and you are right, How long to you think he would last? How big is that arsenal against OURS (USA)?
So you think they would use them to fuck with us sort of like we did to Japan. I agree with you. If you think George Bush is going to keep us free from nuclear attack then I believe you are wrong.

If you think George Bush is going to bring stability to the area then that deserves a dope slap as well.

As far as religious fanatics believing that they are doing God’s work, that would be me, getting up everyday with my children and feeding them and loving them and getting them a good education, taking them to the doctor and dentist. Cooking wonderful meals for my husband, making love to him, cleaning house for him, taking care of his Mother. I could be out in the world making bling, bling, but I believe God wants me to be at home for my children. I don’t think that everyone who believes that God works through them is evil or aggresive or insane, but I believe that people who are evil agressive and insane can believe that God is behind their actions.

The bottom line is we want to have the middle east as our own little Texaco station. Got to go wind is throwing branches.

[Rich]

Saddan is a horrible person, but did you know Saddam feared him, Saddam was considered a liberal leader in the mideast, the woman in Iraq enjoyed more freedoms than almost any other muslim country, and was able to control numerous factions, and tribes, and feard a religous extremist like Bin Laden was out to get him, and as far as I remember he was enemies with almost all of the middle eastern countries, and only changed his rap to muslim extremism during times of war to get jihadist’s on his side.

I cant really place my thoughts together right now, work has stolen my spirit, but i felt i had to elaborate somehow

[K7 Rides Again]

"As far as religious fanatics believing that they are doing God’s work, that would be me, getting up everyday with my children and feeding them and loving them and getting them a good education, taking them to the doctor and dentist. Cooking wonderful meals for my husband, making love to him, cleaning house for him, taking care of his Mother. I could be out in the world making bling, bling, but I believe God wants me to be at home for my children."

I think you completely missed my point about religion, but your answer has summed it up completely. Religion itself isn’t the problem, it’s all the people behind it and what they do in the name of it. People go around justifying their actions based on the fact that they’re doing God’s work. Your coment illustrates this perfectly. Hey, I’m allowed to kill these people, it’s God’s purpose for me.

If God is on our side, we surely cannot be wrong

As far as the comments on boys being warlike, I can’t even begin to describe what’s wrong with this statement. It seems to me that the Spainiards conquered South America under the authority of a King AND Queen. When Sir Walter Drake was expanding the English empire into the Americas and the rest of the world, and when his naval fleet took on the Spanish armada, these were all orders from a women. Cleopatra sure enjoyed the benefits of a wonderful nation and lifestyle due to the enslaving of thousands of laborers. Women can be just as evil

Who cares how long Bin Laden would last if he got off a nuke or two. Drop a new age nuke in downtown LA and 11 milliion people are gone. Park another in central NYC and another 12 million no longer exist. Then of course, there’s the retaliatory strike, and who only knows how many muslims cease to exist. As far as people using nukes against us, the only real threat is N Korea, and even they just use them as a bargaining tool because they know that use would result in the end of the world. But someone like Bin Laden would use them, and that’s why we have to get involved, we have to be there because he only needs one shot. Remember, we’re not just in Iraq.

"Quote Rich’s Comments"

As far as Bin Laden being extreme, most definately. Pretty much every country he seeks refuge in, has ended up asking him to leave, because he was too radical for their tastes. This has only led to infuriation and hatred of the U.S. He hasn’t just plead to kill Americans either, it’s anyone he deems unworthy. Most people don’t follow his fanatic beliefs, but he has enough money and power to continually draw support and gain influence. In a highly unstable region like the middle east, it is important to excerpt some control. Laden’s beleifs may be too radical for Saddam, but I bet Saddam wouldn’t mind seeing a nuke or two dropped on the U.S.. Saddam wouldn’t mind seeing a nuke or two dropped on the countries around him, and even various groups that make up his own country. Saddam has also openly opposed the sanctions set by the U.N. after it invaded Kuwait. He’s one of the unstable (and incredibly defiant) pieces in the game. If you don’t play by the rules, you get booted from the game. Actually Laden hates Saddam for invading Kuwait, but I genuinely believe common interest makes strange arrangements.

As far as the U.S.’s own texaco station? Maybe (well, 99%), although we have plenty of contracts w/ other nations that will readily export oil to us. Just remember, it’s not just the U.S. We’re doing the rest of the world’s dirty work. But I seem to recall the coalition being made up of 37 or more countries that are actively involved and countless others pledging financial and material support. So is it really just the U.S.?

"Hey ineffable, If I sell my car and quite using electricity the war in Iraq would not stop. Even if 2000 of us did that the war would not stop… Hey, I am just as hooked on my car and my plastic tupperware as the next person."

Then don’t bitch about the war in Iraq. Nice cop out though, "Hey, I’m only one person, what can I do?" The problem is, there’s 5 billion people in the world with the exact same mentallity!

Hang in there with that hurricane

[Annastefka]

Rich, I do love that photo of George Bush you have now.

Hey ineffable, We have both made our points and to argue futher would be not helpful to the situation. I have learned much over my many years of marriage and that is that when the two of us have different opinions then we must come to the table and say to each other "What do we do now" "Can we find a point of agreement" If one spends time in prayer and meditation one begins to feel what is right for them. I would say you just have to do that and find out, that is why I say I belive to do my very best for God or Great Spirit or the Universal Good whatever you want to call it, then I feel it on a cellular level, I should stay home. If others feel they should kill in the name of God then I must trust that I don’t understand the workings of God’s plan. Look at Judas! Without Judas Christ wouldn’t have made it to the cross.
Oh, and as far as women being evil, I just have to laugh, we have so many friends who have divorced or are in the middle of one, and the one thing I have learned over time is women can be very hard-core when it comes to ripping the foundation out of a man and a family. Most men are simple in needs and wants, okay, I know this statement is very broad but……..bring in a woman and add children and if you don’t have a very loving, centered, woman, watch out!!! When I met my husband he had one (1) sheet for his full sized bed and one ratty old blanket, now we joke that I have a few sets of sheets for each season, I mean you can’t use flannel in the summer and simple cotton in the winter is not warm enough, and the color needs to match the whole color scheme of the room. Do you think my husband cares what color the sheets are? He is my own personal money faucet, and I get very worried when the flow slows down but……. My husband just summed up the King and Queen of Spain issue perfectly, and he lived with the aftermath of this as he speaks Spainish today, thanks to them, he said the Queen wasn’t a warmonger she just wanted more "Things" She wanted to have more things, esp.. the Jewels, gold, etc….. The good king in wanting to keep his woman happy ( more sex for him, right) will go to war to make this happen.
Here at the University of Georgia we have a few political scienists who have warned us that we will have a nuclear attack in the future on our soil, that is just a give-in. Hey, I don’t like it either.

Oh, and as far as the quote from the Bible. You got that a little wrong, it is "If God is for us than who can be against us" meaning that if you are doing the will of God, (which is Good) then you will have very lilttle resistance because all can easily see that it is good and beautiful thing. No one is against love, they can’t be it is impossible. Is killing others a part of God’s plan? Well, many come against it, that should be your first clue!!!!!

I do have a new fondness for you ineffable when you say " Don’t bitch about the war in Iraq, if you are not willing to give up your car" that is EXACTLY what my husband has been saying to me for a while now. SHUT UP and WALK, (we live 5 miles outside of town and have no bus service) like thats going to happen………….Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[maxini]

"the ineffable me" wrote:

well kiddies, I’ve been hanging in the background long enough, and I finally can’t shut up anymore…

We’re in Iraq for three very basic reasons, of which a slew of complex reasons evolve…

1) Religion
2) Natural Resources
3) Nukes

Starting w/ #2

The world runs on oil. You cannot deny that. It is the one thing that every nation of the world has in common, period. Without oil, the world would cease to be. If you want to stop the war in Iraq, I highly suggest you sell your car, quit using electricity, and basically, quit consuming any type of good that relies on oil in some way or another to get to you. I figure if we all go back to hunting/ gathering societies, this should curb the world oil demand.

Wait a sec. Are you saying that #2 is a legitimate reason to start a war, or that it should even be a factor to take into account when deciding to start a war?

Sold my car years ago…

[SG]

I don`t own a car either

[K7 Rides Again]

yes and no…what I’m saying is, that whenever there is great demand for something, war is inevitable. It’s great that everyone dreams of a utopian world, the philosophical epitome of excellence for mankind, but it’s not reality. It doesn’t hurt to wish…but let’s be real…again, oil makes the world go ’round.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, as long as everyone wants to continue to use goods that rely on oil in some form or another, there will be war over it…oil makes the world go ’round…

As far as starting a war…we’ve been at war w/ Iraq since Iraq invaded Kuwait 15 years ago (in the name of reclaiming Iraqi lands, but in reality for oil). Fighting in Iraq is nothing new, we just have a larger build up of troops there recently. The Clinton administration had two aircraft carriers parked just outside of Iraq the whole time he was in office. He was constantly dropping bombs on Iraq, and shooting down Iraqi planes to enforce the no-fly zone. This war in Iraq isn’t new, it just hasn’t been on such a large scale since Desert Storm.

[K7 Rides Again]

Do you ride a bike? I’ll bet you put oil on the chain to prevent it from rusting and in the gears so that they shift smoothly, and grease in the bearings, so that the pedals turn effortlessly, and prevent it all form freezing up.

Do you use public transportation? Oil makes those wheels turn, too.

How about the computer you all are typing your messages w/? I guarantee oil was used to produce and ship it.

How about the electricity you’re using right now to run that computer and post on this site? Oil keeps the generators turning.

Let’s be real here…

[maxini]

Well many issues are complicated, but sometimes something is simply wrong or right.. and however I look at it, blood for oil is simply wrong.

Your little rant about oil on bicycle chains was funny though….

[Author]

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