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Maxini and ineffable, both of you now are closer to the core.
Ineffable is correct, my husband made me see that all wars are resource wars, the oil will run out and water will be a big issue in just 20 years or so. Many a man has killed another over something he feels his family, tribe or nation needs to hang on to or protect. How do we raise the level of awareness of this and share the wealth.So funny just as I wrote that line Jerry Garcia was singing the line
"We can share the women, we can share the wine"Yes, it is true about that oil. Everybody needs it. But does the USA have to be the owner of the oil? I think everybody can buy oil that belongs to Iraq.
Does the USA have to own everything? The balance beetween the western and eastern countries is very unstable. So it is no wonder about the terroristattacks etc.
So in my opinion The USA is not really fighting against terrorism by waging war everywhere, The USA is "supporting" terrorism by conquering everything they yet dont have.Regardless of whether the oil resources of the world are starting to run dry, we need to stop burning oil at the pace we’re doing. How badly does the weather need to be fucked up before conservatists realize that global warming just might be a reality?
The Kyoto agreement could have been a good start, but we all know that a certain superpower refused to sign it… and now – if I’m interpreting the ineffable me correctly – that superpower is fighting wars in order to make it possible to continue burning oil just like before for a few more extra years… Isn’t that just beautiful?
Rant about a bicycle? First and foremost, that’s NOT a rant. If you consume, you are contributing to the world’s oil demand. Unless you quit cosuming, I really don’t think it’s fair that you bitch. You’re part of the world’s oil problem. You can’t say it’s wrong and then continue to use it.
As far as sharing goes, that’s why we’re there. To make sure everyone gets a chunk of it at a reasonable price. We don’t have to be there, as long as you don’t mind paying $20 bucks a gallon.
The U.S. owning everything? WTF are you talking about? 37 countries are actively involved in the gound campaign and countless others are supporting it. Sure seems to me that there was a huge controversy after the initial invasion between all the countries who didn’t want to attack suddenly wanting a huge say on what happens (France and Germany for starters). Get the fuck out of here, you didn’t do a single thing for but bitch, and suddenly you deserve a piece of the action? Yeah right!
After all the reading I’ve done on the Kyoto Deal. It seems to me the most people agree it’s a very short term fix. It also will seem to have little effect on a large scale. The U.S. also has some of the strictest environmental regulations around. Get your regulations up to U.S. standards, and then come crying to me about us not signing the Kyoto agreement.
Is global warming a reality? Many scientists are beginning to think they have it wrong. Also, on an astronomical scale, a degree shift such as this is nothing new. Throughout the course of history the temp has deviated form "normal" quite a bit. Seems to me that there was an "ice age" just around 10,000 years ago.
Conservartists? Quote my bleeding heart liberal friends…
"Man, this war in Iraq is bullshit. These guys aren’t dieing for me. It’s reallly just about oil you know. Man $20 bucks for a tank full of gas! WTF? These prices are outrageous! We need to get this shit lowered!" Throws some trash in the can, and proceed to drive 800 miles to the nearest hippy show.
It’s not just conservatives my friends, it’s you all as well :slap:
I swear, the liberal left toots there own horn just as much as the conservative right. Hey, I’m a liberal, I surely can’t be wrong. I have liberal ideaology on my side. Your just as bad as the religious right. :slap:
I only mentioned conservatives (thanks for pointing out the typo so humbly btw) because often when I happen to watch Fox news for a while there is someone saying that global warming is just an invention by liberal scientists. Ok, believe that if you wish.
About the bicycle thing – the notion that someone has to die for my right to put a few drops of oil on my bicycle chain is so ridiculous that I regret having commented on it.
The Kyoto deal is far from perfect, but it could at least have been a start.
After Singapore, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, the US has the highest oil consumption per capita in the world and by far the highest total consumption of all countries. Even if oil is being burnt in an otherwise clean way, it always produces carbon dioxide which is… oh, I forgot what they said on Fox news.. there cannot possibly be a connection between the increased level of CO2 in the atmosphere and the temperature rise + freaky weather…
"I only mentioned conservatives (thanks for pointing out the typo so humbly btw)"
Hey Maxini, I didn’t even relaize I put that there! :slap:
No subtlety intended, that was a bonehead move on my part
Is it messed up that someone is dieing for oil? You bet it is! But it’s also the reality of it.
I just don’t think it’s fair to complain about people dieing for the stuff but then continue to consume it,when you know what the end result it. You can’t have it both ways.
This is where a lot of the libs hav eit all fucked up. They want everything both ways…
Quote John Kerry "I will fix the deficit by raising the tax on gas another 50 cents/ gallon."
Two weeks later "The problem w/ America is that gas prices are too high!"
Of course he never mentioned how he’s going to do it…
As far as the pollution thing, I seem to remember reading somewhere that one large volcanic eruption pollutes the air more than mankind ever has.
Does that mean we shouldn’t do our part to help?…of course not. But is it possible that there are quite a few other things going on that could also be causing our climatic shft? You better believe it.
Fine, I just don’t think that you’re either a total hypocrite or need to wash your hands clean of every oil product there is to oppose war for oil.
We seem to disagree on that so let’s just agree to disagree. I decline from further comments now.. at least for the time being, going for a beer…
"the ineffable me" wrote:That’s why the U.S. has to get involved. To help bring stability to this area, and prevent religious cults form gaining the upper hand and destroying us.Do you feel that the us has been successfull with this in Iraq?
To me the whole situation seems to have gotten way beyond out of control. The people are suffering terribly, perhaps even more so than under saddams regime(no this does not mean that I support a dictator.) And there’s a lot of different fractions with their own agenda that are fighting against the occupants, against the population of Iraq, and amongst themselves. And there’s people who’s not in any sense affiliated with Iraq or the people there, that are travelling to Iraq now because it has become allmost a battlefield where they can fight against the us.No matter what the intentions were in the start, the result is fucking hell, and the people of Iraqs are the one paying the price.
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"the ineffable me" wrote:That’s why the U.S. has to get involved. To help bring stability to this area, and prevent religious cults form gaining the upper hand and destroying us.Then what is next, so MANY countries in Africa need stability, in most of those Countries the wrong sort of groups are getting the upper hand and killing those who don’t agree with them. Why are we not there spending our tax money to help the Africans, well, because they have NOTHING we want.
Oh, I had to Edit and say I always get a chuckle when Laura Bush says "George really cares about the people of Iraq" Thats what you do when you care about someone you kill them right? Oh, no, why don’t I leave this topic alone. I have to go mop the kitchen it is way past due.
Quote:Then what is next, so MANY countries in Africa need stability, in most of those Countries the wrong sort of groups are getting the upper hand and killing those who don’t agree with them. Why are we not there spending our tax money to help the Africans, well, because they have NOTHING we want.ANGOLA
1976-92
Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.IRAN
1980
Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.LIBYA
1981
Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.EL SALVADOR
1981-92
Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.NICARAGUA
1981-90
Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.LEBANON
1982-84
Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions.HONDURAS
1983-89
Troops
Maneuvers help build bases near borders.GRENADA
1983-84
Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.IRAN
1984
Jets
Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.LIBYA
1986
Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov’t.BOLIVIA
1986
Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.IRAN
1987-88
Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.LIBYA
1989
Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.VIRGIN ISLANDS
1989
Troops
St. Croix Black unrest after storm.PHILIPPINES
1989
Jets
Air cover provided for government against coup.PANAMA
1989-90
Troops, bombing
Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.LIBERIA
1990
Troops
Foreigners evacuated during civil war.SAUDI ARABIA
1990-91
Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.IRAQ
1990-?
Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.KUWAIT
1991
Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.LOS ANGELES
1992
Troops
Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.SOMALIA
1992-94
Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.YUGOSLAVIA
1992-94
Naval
Nato blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.BOSNIA
1993-95
Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.HAITI
1994-96
Troops, naval
Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.CROATIA
1995
Bombing
Krajina Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive.ZAIRE (CONGO)
1996-97
Troops
Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.LIBERIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.ALBANIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.SUDAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.AFGHANISTAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.IRAQ
1998-?
Bombing, Missiles
Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.YUGOSLAVIA
1999-?
Bombing, Missiles
Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo.YEMEN
2000
Naval
Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole.MACEDONIA
2001
Troops
NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.UNITED STATES
2001
Jets, naval
Response to hijacking attacks.AFGHANISTAN
2001
Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden. War could expand to Iraq, Sudan, and beyond.Yeah, becasue we’re never involved anywhere else
Quote:The people are suffering terribly, perhaps even more so than under saddams regime(no this does not mean that I support a dictator.Do you honestly, honestly, honestly, believe it was better under Saddam? When you read and hear about all the terrible things he did to his own people, do you honestly believe that?
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/15/Worldandnation/Atrocities_attributed.shtml”>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/15/World … uted.shtml
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/02/iraq99.htm”>http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/02/iraq99.htm
"the ineffable me" wrote:Do you honestly, honestly, honestly, believe it was better under Saddam? When you read and hear about all the terrible things he did to his own people, do you honestly believe that?I belive there are more suffering in iraq ritght now than there was under the saddam regime, yes. Does that mean that I think they were happy, or not suffering under saddams regime, no. Does it mean that I wish that the occupants of the country managed to bring stability and peace to the region, yes. Do I think the us is even close to that, no.
"the ineffable me" wrote:We’re in Iraq for three very basic reasons, of which a slew of complex reasons evolve…1) Religion
2) Natural Resources
3) NukesStarting w/ #2
The world runs on oil. You cannot deny that. It is the one thing that every nation of the world has in common, period. Without oil, the world would cease to be. If you want to stop the war in Iraq, I highly suggest you sell your car, quit using electricity, and basically, quit consuming any type of good that relies on oil in some way or another to get to you. I figure if we all go back to hunting/ gathering societies, this should curb the world oil demand.
"Wake Up America!"
Get real :slap:Yes, well I have long thought about this point you have brought up and because I’ve just come out of class and feel like I’m learning to think backwards… in time… a few things come to mind. First, the thought about everyone being absorbed to grease such a big machine. The almost unstopable self-perpetuating droning wheel, that is the wheel of consumption and creature comforts–this wheel, that at one point in my life, has torn me in two…Tell me WHO, here in North America has resisted this wheel and won? If it’s possible, let me know… Renters can’t be choosers.
I cannot take it upon myself to be as environmentally savvy as I’d like to be. I have little time to take care of myself and therefore create waste and use products that are petroleum based… I want aolian based electricity for my house and an enviro friendly transport system… I won’t drive a car until it runs on anything BUT fossil fuels and is ENTIRELY recycled.
I don’t want people to die for my comforts, but they do… I can scream all I want about this dichotomy, but it will only be absorbed by this big machine….
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